Before and After “ Last Afternoon” Takuma Watanabe　⇄　James Hadfield

Following dialogue between James Hadfield , a critic of film and music, and Takuma Watanabe, a composer, visual creator, was originally published on intoxicate vol. 152 in Japanese. Here with their collaboration, intoxicate Note represents whole dialogue in English.

日本語版はこちら

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Cross
“Inner + Viewing”
A symmetric talks before after “ Last Afternoon”
Takuma Watanabe　⇄　James Hadfield

Looking back last 20 years of music and film in Japan, eyes and ears of James and Takuma lock on to unexpected or unpredictable soundscapes and imagery. The dialogue reflects a mirror image of what we might have missed or are to miss.

Takuma Watanabe (Takuma): James-san, you've been living in Tokyo for about 20 years, right?

James Hadfield (James): Close enough. I've been living in Japan since 2002.

Watanabe: We might have passed each other at some venues. Say, Super Deluxe.

James: That's possible. I miss Super Deluxe.

Watanabe: This question sounds very vague, but how do you think the music scene in Japan has changed over the past 2 decades ?

James: When I first came to Japan, I think the band scene was stronger. I mean, bands are still big in Japan now compared to many overseas markets, but when I first came here, you could still feel the influence of the 90's, and I saw some pretty amazing bands. It was a time when you could say that bands were on the cutting edge of music, but nowadays, I think there are fewer who are doing things that no one has ever done before. I feel that many of them are repeating the same old music. There are still a few that are doing great stuff, such as Koshiro Hino's goat or Kukangendai. But I’m personally more excited about solo artists who are working more in the field of electronic music.

Watanabe: Hino from goat is also running a label, isn't he? Recently, it seems not to matter whether a label is major or indie, and it's true not only in Japan, but all over the world.

James: Yes, that's true. When MySpace was in its prime, it had a massive effect overseas, but not in Japan. A lot of people weren’t using PCs yet, and CDs were still selling well. So I think Japanese artists were a little late to start embracing the Internet. Recently, as net labels have become popular, and more and more artists are using SoundCloud and Bandcamp, I think Japanese solo artists are starting to get a little more attention overseas. And they don’t have to care about becoming popular in Japan. They are mainly releasing their music through overseas labels. So I think there’s been an uptick in the number of Japanese artists who are getting attention from overseas in the past few years.

Watanabe: A compilation of Japanese ambient music (from the 1980s), ‘Kankyō Ongaku’ , is a good example showing how a certain era of Japanese music and its specific context are being reevaluated overseas.

James: Yes, that's true. It's much easier to get exposed to Japanese music now than it used to be. For example, Midori Takada's album (‘Through the Looking Glass’) became a hit on YouTube. I think the overall awareness and knowledge of Japanese music culture internationally has definitely improved.

Watanabe: That's right. I think there has been a reevaluation of music of the past , but what do you think of the present music scene? It seems to me that there are no developing scenes and artists are still working on their own.

James: It's more like a lone wolf situation. You don't have to be part of a scene to do well overseas...

Watanabe: There even are some artists who run their own labels…

James: Yes. So in a sense, the artists who run those labels are creating their own scenes, aren't they? For example, Kukangendai moved to Kyoto and are now active there, running their own venue, while Shokuhin Matsuri aka Foodman is based in Nagoya.

Watanabe: The Internet enables us to do what we want while staying at local.

James: You don't have to move to Tokyo any more. You can live and work where you want.

Watanabe: So there is a situation where artists are releasing their own music overseas, but what about labels in Japan ?

James: I write a blog where I pick up various kinds of music from Japan, but I think most of the albums I write about are released by overseas labels. Those artists might think it a bit of a waste to release major work on a domestic label. Most Japanese labels doesn't use Bandcamp, and if they do, they’ll sometimes insist on releasing digital albums for the same price as CDs.

Watanabe: Major labels can substantially meet their business by domestic demands only.

James: I think that’s been the case for decades. However, I think major artists are also becoming more conscious of the international market recently. Also, even just a few years ago, Japanese artists might have felt they needed to move overseas, but if you get a booking agent in Europe or wherever, you don't need to do that anymore.

Watanabe: James-san, you are film critics, too. How do you feel about the changes in Japanese films over the past few years? Moviemaking isn’t something that can be done single-handedly, and the process is completely different from music production.

James: I think it's a case-by-case thing. I feel that some Japanese films are aimed at overseas audiences.

Watanabe: How they do it ? By their choices of themes or contents ?

James: Well, I care a lot about aesthetics, so I like to see films with well-crafted images and music. If a film is made in the same way as a TV drama, you know it's only intended for a domestic audience. Even many really big Japanese films look like TV dramas. On the other hand, a lot of the arthouse films getting shown at so-called ‘mini-theaters’ are also aiming for overseas audiences and festivals.

Watanabe: Filmmaker necessarily consider the box office revenue when making films. What do you think about film literacy in Japan, such as film criticism ?

James: I think a lot of the reviews just read like summaries of the film. It's not criticism.

Watanabe: Just like explanation?

James: Yes. When I was growing up in the UK in the 90s, I used to read ‘Empire’ religiously. It’s the kind of magazine that would run features on blockbusters like ‘Jurassic Park’, but also review the latest Pedro Almodóvar. So it was pretty broad, but it wasn’t aimed at a specialist audience with a high level of film knowledge. Also, all the British newspapers ran film reviews, and the writers were often extremely good.

Watanabe: I’ve read some of the film reviews you wrote for the Japan Times, and I found it interesting that while you could be harsh in your overall ratings, you also dug deep into the details and contexts of the film. Not to mention music, the British have a long tradition of cultural criticism.

James: That’s not just in the UK. I also read a lot of American film critics, and there are some I like…

Watanabe: Who do you like? Roger Ebert?

James: Oh, yes. ‘Empire’, which I was talking about earlier, had a similar approach to Roger Ebert. I hadn't read Ebert at that time, but now that I have, I think he was an exceptional critic. He was also writing for a general readership, but he was very knowledgeable, and I think he was able to strike a good balance. More recently, there’s a culture critic from the New York Times called Wesley Morris, who used to write these amazing essay-type reviews for an online magazine called ‘Grantland'. I learned a lot from those. He’d be writing about movies in great depth, not he wasn’t just watching press previews: he’d also go and watch movies in a theater with an audience after they were released, so his articles had that kind of atmosphere. If you only watch movies at previews and spend all your time in that world, your sense could become a little dull. I think it’s important not to forget that feeling (of watching a movie in a theater). One day, I’d like to have a proper chat with a Japanese film critic, and just find out what they think they're doing.

Watanabe: Public Radio Stations such as BBC play important part in UK. Some DJs play alternative and experimental music on their programs.

James: I don’t think labels (or film companies) are able to exert influence over editorial to the extent that they do in Japan. I think that ele-king, which I sometimes write for, publishes interesting articles, though.John Peel, the legendary radio DJ, was still going strong in the 90's, and underground music could still get played on BBC Radio 1. Radio has a lot more influence in the UK than it does in Japan. There are so many people who listen to it. In Japan, on the other hand, radio is much more niche, so I don't think it has much clout.

Watanabe: There used to be radio programs broadcasting contemporary music and experimental music, but now almost none. Then the internet is a common tool to provide information with people, isn't it ?

James: When I first came to Japan, I felt there was a barrier between indie and major labels. In the UK in the 90s, you had artists like Massive Attack and Aphex Twin who crossed over from the underground, but they didn't make their music more commercial in order to become popular – they just kept doing what they wanted. There wasn’t the same kind of divide between majors and indies that you get in Japan. Also, when an indie artist here makes their major-label debut, that’s often when they stop being interesting.

Watanabe: Recently, overseas major labels rather give careful attention to the ideas of indie labels. Do you think there is still that issue, the barrier between majors and indies ? If so, would you tell me why.

James: In the past, magazines had a lot of influence, and I think the media were part of the problem. The record companies and the media were too close. Nowadays, I honestly don't know where young people are getting their information. Streaming services like Spotify have become more powerful, and I get the impression that major labels are cozying up with Spotify. So I think the structure is basically the same as in the past, it’s just the platform that's changed.

Watanabe: I don't use Spotify so much, but it’s all based on algorithms, isn’t it?

James: But I don't think it's just algorithms. There are people at Spotify who are curating music. I don't think Spotify automatically chooses music for you. If that were true, I'd hope it would introduce me to more interesting artists (laughs).

Watanabe: I think music isn’t only about knowledge or information, it also creates opportunities for unexpected connections. Talking with you today would be one example(laughs). Meeting the musicians who I play with now felt like another such unexpected meeting.

― About Last Afternoon

Watanabe: This album is to be presented as my debut album.. (Laughs)

James: Yeah, why is that? (Laughs)

Watanabe: Adrian, the owner of the label who will release it, told me it's my first full-length album coming out in Europe, so it’s okay to call it a debut (Laughs).But once an album is done, I'm already moving on to the next thing, so I always feel like leaving my works unfinished…….

James: Do you think this album is a complete break from your previous work?

Watanabe: I think this one shares some kind of common thread with previous ones. But all pieces on the album were conceived as the songbook for the string players with whom I've been working for the past few years – not just on my own music, but also film scores and other projects. So the songbook originally has the collective aspect. Now, these projects and collaborations with them come to fruition as this album “Last Afternoon” . But this time, the album is intended to represent the personal aspect of it .

James: Where does the personal aspect come into it?

Watanabe: This time I made animation videos by myself... (Laughs). I had an image of a sound that was playing in a place where I didn’t exist. I turned that into animation, and then I made the sound to go with it. It was a slight strange process.

James: So you mean, the animation came first, and then the sound?

Watanabe: Yeah..

James: Wow.

Watanabe: So that animation feeds back into the music. It's a product of various things interacted with. Also, I'd like to explore the relationship between computers and strings playing…

James: There was a brief description about what you’re doing with the strings and software, and I was curious about that. For instance, on the album, there are times when the pitch of the strings seems to become unstable, and I wasn't sure if that was a result of something the performers were playing themselves, or the software. Can you tell me about that process?

Watanabe: That unstable pitch was played by each string player. Not by software at all.

James: Oh, really!

Watanabe: There are specific sections on the score, written with mixtures of microtones and standard pitch tones. These mixed notations produce the unstable sound by momentally distraction of the sense of pitch individual string players should follow. To put it simply, the performance is unstable. The notes are written on the score, but each performer's interpretation is a little bit different. The score includes those kinds of sections where errors are to occur. I thought there was some kind of affinity between the nuances of the errors in players’ performances and the indeterminacy of computer sound processing. That’s what gave me the idea of focusing on the composition for the ensemble of strings and computer.

James: You've been playing with the same players for several years, which is maybe what makes it possible for them to play like that.

Watanabe: I think so. I think feeling and nuance in the way players interpret a score, are very important. If there are parts where the score does’t give clear directions, the players will add some their own interpretations. It's not improvisation, but it's a way for each performer to add a little of their interpretation and approach to the sound. By contrast, I don't play the piano so much recently…

James: Why? Did you get sick of it?

Watanabe: I'm not good at keeping up not only practicing an instrument but anything (Laughs).
In the past few years, as I've been working on film music and composition, I started worrying that I didn’t have time to practice, and I've stopped going into the room where the piano is. But instead of practicing, I could be using that time to watch a movie, read, or do something productive.

James: Did you use to practice a lot?

Watanabe: When I was in a band, the other members, Kazuhisa Uchihashi(guitarist/composer) and Munetomi Senju(drummer ex.Boredoms), were so good at playing. It's not just about technique, they are also really outstanding improvisers, and they can turn on as soon as they get on stage. So it was really tough for me to keep up with them (Laughs).

James: (Laughs)

Watanabe: If I had played and made music with them, I should have kept practicing.
That was my obsession at the time. I used to be a very active guy on the live scene then.
Since I’ve started keeping distance from practicing and playing, I noticed unknown possibilities of performance separated from practical experience but based on intuition from moment to moment. For instance, it would be like using a computer, running a software called Max, making clicks or touching the keyboard. I think those slight physical gestures, or even finger movement are good enough. Also, I want to compose without playing any sound.

James: Writing music without using any instruments?

Watanabe: Yes, I would like to compose a piece written with the score to which my thinking is not well reflected. I like to build the sound with precision, but I also like to destroy it right after its completion (Laughs).

James: You want to be surprised by your own music?

Watanabe: That might be one thing. It probably ties in with the concept of the animation that I was talking about earlier: playing sound in a place where I don’t exist, making music without the intervention of the composer or without reflection of my intention.

James: When you let other players interpret your compositions, do you find that it comes out sounding different from how you’d expected?

Watanabe:Unexpected results by the interpretations by musicians…. Well, accordingly, I think I will take them as more closer image to my own (Laughs). A few years ago in Oita, there was a performance project in which I organized a string ensemble for people who had no experience of playing a string instrument, and they did the premiere for a new work of mine. I gave the players a score with unconventional notations, and so long as they would follow them through, the score would be materialized. When the performance started on the day, there was this tremendous sound, a texture I’d never heard before (Laughs).

James: Ha ha ha

Watanabe: It was the most interesting music that I’d made up to that point, or in this case, the most interesting music that I’d been involved in. It wasn't that people could play whatever they liked, but it also wasn't about playing exactly what was written. It's like a feeling of instability. The audience, performers, and even the composer didn't understand what's going on (Laughs).

James: (Laughs)

Watanabe: I don't think of large ensembles or orchestras as a grand spectacle, I see them more as a gathering of individual players. I'm interested in how the subtle differences of interpretation and sound in each player create the blank. I don't want to compose music that fills all the space, both physically and psychologically.

In June, I'm going to do an online broadcast with string players from the UK to premiere a new work, and the idea is that each player performs at their own location, then I'm going to combine the audio and movie data to make an ensemble. So it's an ensemble, but the players can't listen to each other's performance or sound until the piece is finished (Laughs). This idea came up due to the current situation, but it's also another interesting experiment.

James: It could be fascinating. (Laughs)

Watanabe: Or it might not work at all. I'm interested either way. (Laughs)

James: There’s also a lot of detail in your new album. With electronic music, I tend to find that when it’s too detailed, the music loses its vitality, but that wasn’t the case here. It feels very alive, which is probably because the combination of strings and electronics is so well done. It also has a kind of ASMR element, which has become a big thing overseas recently…

Watanabe: The audio sensation, right?

James: Yes, I got that kind of vibe from a few tracks. That reminded me of the album you did with Félicia Atkinson and Akira Rabelais last year. I'm not a fan of music that sounds too perfect, and there was a lot of that going around in the Japanese electronic music scene 10 years ago. It was all very orchestral, very polished and attractively done, but it felt like the kind of music that belonged in a museum.

Watanabe: But that's also a kind of aesthetic.

James: Yes, it’s the kind of like Japanese painting. When you look at paintings from a long time ago, they have this strange energy to them, but since the beginning of the 20th century, with the Nihonga movement, it all became really staid and conservative, and they lost that essence. There may have been something similar happening with Japanese electronica. Maybe if it becomes too finessed, the music stops moving forward.Your album isn't like that, probably because it has that element of randomness in it. When I listened to it with your animation, I was like… (Looks amazed) I mean, it's not exactly up to the level of Pixar or anything. (Laughs)

Watanabe: (Laughs)

James: I thought you’d created an intriguing world, though. When I watched it on my laptop I was just like, ’Whaaaat' (Laughs). It was a real trip.

Watanabe: Yeah, I like video games a lot. That animation was created using a game engine.

James: Oh, I see! I just thought since you've been working on film soundtracks lately, maybe you wanted to try making a movie yourself.

Watanabe: I'm basically interested in music. But I think it's okay if the images come first. I see this animation as an extension of my musical composition. Personally, when I'm composing a soundtrack, I'm not too focused on the theme or message of the film at first, and pay much more attention to the images and textures. For example, when I first read the script for the movie “Rolling," directed by my friend Masanori Tominaga, I honestly didn't know what kind of movie it was. (Laughs) I mean, that was such a unique movie. It’s always by watching a rough edit and talking to the director that I get to grips with it.

James: I recently interviewed director Daihachi Yoshida, and I watched "A Beautiful Star" for the first time as preparation. I think your soundtrack for that movie is quite different from your own music, isn't it? (Laughs) Did he ask you to make such crazy stuff?

Watanabe: I think the craziest music in that movie is the awakening of Ai Hashimoto and Lily Franky on the beach. Actually, for that scene, they’d used a temp track (rough soundtrack) from Tominaga's “Rolling." I had a preconceived notion about that music, because I’d already made it for another film. So I struggled a little with that, but in the end I decided not to work from the temp track, and make something completely different instead. That's why the soundtrack became this kind of super hardcore techno. (Laughs)

James: Yeah. (Laughs) In movies now, there’s a lot of overlap between the soundtrack and sound design. What do you think of that kind of soundtrack?

Watanabe: In the United States, for example, I think most film music work is basically a division of labor. The composers compose, and the arrangers do the arrangements. Personally, I'm doing both, and I don't want to leave the arrangement to someone else. I think it’s been a recent trend in movies for sound design to be part of the arrangement. Just to make a simple comparison, you could look at John Williams and Hans Zimmer. I can imagine a score by John Williams, but Hans Zimmer is…

James: (Low voice) Bwong!

Watanabe: Yes, yes. I don’t think you need to write that sound in the score, and I think that kind of heavy bass sound used to be responsible for the sound designer. But recently, it’s become closer to composition. I mean, I’m a little old-fashioned – or rather, I like the concept of a film score. But I think it would be very interesting to experiment with incorporating musique concrète into orchestration, as Toru Takemitsu did, for example. I’m also interested in the soundtrack work of artists like Mica Levi or Jonny Greenwood. You have to pay a lot to get the Hans Zimmer sound: he'll be using 20 bass trombones. I want to try to compete with that using a single trumpet. (Laughs)

James: That’s great! Sure, there are a lot of interesting artists making soundtracks these days. I play saxophone, so I have a lot of respect for Colin Stetson, and he’s also been making film music. Then there’s Haxan Cloak, too, but he’s more like sound design, it's not a typical soundtrack.

Watanabe: I personally think that film music is something that needs to be discovered or invented for each film.

James: But the schedule makes it hard to come up with something completely new every time.

Watanabe: Yes, when I finish a film score, I look exhausted and in need of a shave, but I don’t mind that feeling (Laughs). I mean, personally I don't have so many opportunities to be present on the set during a shoot. I tend to get involved during post-production. You have to be resourceful under pressure. One of the pleasures of working as a film composer is coming up with a breathtaking invention, and sound design can be part of that. It’s about creating a distinctive dramatic effect.

James: Indeed.

Watanabe: When I was younger, I wanted to be a magician.

James: What!? Magic?

Watanabe: Yeah, magic.

James: Oh, now it all makes sense. (Laughs)

Watanabe: But when I performed magic tricks in front of an audience, it was a disaster. I got stage fright. After that, I focused on making magic sets rather than performing. I put the magic set in a box and displayed it in my room (Laughs). I think there’s some similarity with what I’m doing now. Movies are also partly about creating an illusion.

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PROFILE：

James Hadfield is originally from the U.K., but has been living in Japan since 2002.He writes mainly about Japanese music and cinema, and is a regular contributor to The Japan Times and The Wire (UK).

Takuma Watanabe studied composition and music technology in 1997 at Berklee college of music.In 2007 he joined the world tour of David Sylvian performing with synthesizers and computer and played 28 concerts. In 2008 he founded a string ensemble with computer technology which has been giving public performances of contemporary and drone music.In 2010 he started his film composing career.He has performed or collaborated with,Jonas Mekas, David Sylvian, Joan La Barbara, Félicia Atkinson, Akira Rabelais, Tatsuhisa Yamamoto, Seiichi Yamamoto amongst others.

CD&LP『Last Afternoon』
Takuma Watanabe
[SN Variations/Constructive CN1CD（CD）CN1（LP）